Ruth Croman – Attracting and retaining female talent

In this episode of the Your Law Firm Success podcast Ruth discusses the challenges of being a Managing Partner and a fee earner, succession planning in a small firm and the increasingly important issue of attracting and retaining female talent.

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In today’s edition of the your Law Firm success podcast I talk to Ruth Croman who’s the managing partner at macnabs and Perth in Scotland one of the reasons I wanted to chat to her was because she’s performing a role which I think is can be quite common and quite challenging within small to medium-sized law firms which is that of the hybrid technician lawyer and managing partner in this episode she talks about the transition from lawyer into management she talks about succession planning and she talks about attracting and retaining female talent and given the fact that we have many more women than men now entering the profession this is something well worth listening to Ruth thanks for coming in this morning thanks for traveling down where have you come from you’re just outside Dollar okay so where’s that for those who are those that are not familiar with the geography of central Scotland so about an hour away kind of sits between Stirling and Kinross right okay so an hour away from Glasgow yeah and I’ve had my initiation around the East End of Glasgow this morning as well well it’s a pleasant place to be on a on a Thursday morning all all is well with the world good and so could you know I obviously know you and we’ve worked with you for quite a while work with macnabs could you tell me a bit about you your role now how you’ve got there and a bit about macnabs in general please yeah sure so I am 49 just about to be next week have been a lawyer very conventionally went to UNI straight out of straight out of school did my law degree did my diploma did my traineeship and then have worked in litigation and laterally in family law in the Perthshire area all all that time and I’m now the managing partner at macnabs macnabs is I suppose a personal services legal firm based in PE but we have offices in Pitlochry Bridge of Allan and Blairgowrie as well and we I think there are 44 of us at the present count and I do a hybrid of the managing partner role  and trying to drive the firm forward but also I have still a foot in fearing as well so I have this kind of hybrid role just now and why was that that when you decided to make the move into to management but not completely yeah I think just the the size of firm so I became managing partner in 2017 and we had never had a managing partner up until that point and I think the firm had been through various changes various changes of personnel at partner level as well and there was a recognition then that actually we we needed to you know get our stuff together and just get if we were serious about trying to do things differently I suppose then we needed to have a bit more of a cohesive approach and have someone that was focused on on driving that forward and at that time I think there were five partners that we had or four Partners I think and it seemed to fall on to me that everyone thought that it would be a good idea if I did this as well and I suppose the last six years really have just been an evolution of what that role looks like for us as firm you know we’re certainly still a really small firm we’re still a personal Legal Services firm I don’t think there is an economic justification a commercial justification for having a full-time managing partner and so because it was a new role for our firm as well  it’s been great because it’s allowed me to shape it as to how I think it should be done but that has you know that has meant having a foot in both camps effectively having that managerial oversight but still being in court you know on the ground speaking to clients on a daily basis yeah see that’s I mean it’s interesting because you know you say you’re you know still a small firm you know the vast majority of firms in the UK are you know one to four Partners I think there’s something like 85% of them this podcast is directed and designed for those in small to medium-sized law firms understanding how they can make their Law Firm more successful and one of the challenges that they always going to have is making that decision as to when you move from becoming a technician yep into management and just to cover that phrase a web bit more we were talking about it before we started recording around the e-myth by Daniel Gerber which is a very very good book and it talks about at the outset how one will typically start a business because one is good at something or is a technician whether that be a baker a hairdresser or a lawyer then once you start to run your own business you required to take on three different roles which is that of the technician that of the manager and that of the entrepreneur until you get to the point where you are able to take on people to perform those roles but in macnabs you’d never had a managing partner that’s right what was the the Genesis for that change or for you to decide not this is something that we need yeah I think around that so it was 2017 as I said that I became the managing partner and I think around that time there was quite a lot of movement in the Scottish legal Market you know we saw for example I can’t remember the precise dates but you know Dundas and Wilson which had always been a big big firm they were no longer we seen maclay Murray and Spence no longer exist Todd Murray names that you know if you’re if you’re my age you would be very familiar with as a lawyer there we go and so I think we had then seen quite a lot of merged activity in smaller firms you know whether for lack of succession planning or whatever in the Perth area but also more widely across Scotland  having to lose their identity and you know go and be part of a bigger firm and we thought right okay well we need to think about this you know do we want to what’s our strategy is it we want to build ourselves up so that we are an attractive Target for someone to a bigger firm to come and look is that what the momentum in the Scottish legal Market is looking like you know we need to we spoke to a couple of Consultants just really recognising as you’re saying Stephen as well with the e-myth that you know we’re lawyers we’re technical lawyers you know we need to work out we have a business as well though and we need to work out what’s going to be best for our business and our staff and the collective and started really exploring what it meant to be a law firm I suppose as well and where we wanted to go just peeking our interest I suppose beyond the technical the technical law that we that we do and what did you decide in terms of where you wanted to go, I mean obviously this this is a podcast about Law Firm success you know we talked a lot or we talk a lot to our client firms around desired future State you know what was the discussion around that yeah I think we thought we don’t want to be one of these firms who just remain static and you know if you stand still you’re going backwards and therefore that there is no we leave ourselves in a position that there is no alternative but to become part of a larger organisation you know you’ve lost all your leverage you know you’re just you’re there to be subsumed we thought right we know we don’t want that that that that didn’t fit with any of our individual purposes or drive I suppose and so we thought right well we have to do something and as I say we spoke to a couple of Consultants just about what the Scottish legal Market looked like what their feel was with you know where the  direction of travel was I suppose and thought right okay and we had a bit of a collective decision right we’ll give this you know let’s try and get our together and let’s give you know this as good to go as we as we can and let’s really try because I think up until that point our firm had been on the go for you know more than 120 years it existed for a long time but it was more a collection of technicians I would say that happened to work under the same branding almost like an advocate stable you know with our headed notepaper or whatever and pooling you know cashier ex and reception services rather than actually exploring what our purpose was why are we doing this what makes us good at our jobs and and we’ve spent the last six years I suppose thus far and we’ll continue to do so working out what motivates us what makes us a bit different from from other firms and and why that is hopefully attractive to our to our clients and to to staff who want to come and work for us and what would your assessment be of that now in retrospect looking back yeah looking backwards and we always this is like cheesy but we always talk about our macnabsness so it’s slight slightly Quicky slightly different we have the firm has grown quite substantially over the last 10 years  anyway both in terms of Revenue but also staff and and geographically as well but it’s just doing things a bit differently and always remembering that we’re a personal Legal Services firm and our job is always about people with and person personal relationships whether that’s with your staff whether that’s with your clients whether that’s with your third-party suppliers and making sure that’s front and centre of everything that we do and so it sounds as if that maybe part of that has been working on establishing your brand values yes and I know you worked with Julie yes Pelo that’s very helpful in terms of understanding the way that you talk to one another that you talk to your your clients the way in which your staff yeah understand yep and that that can remove a lot of the uncertainty around that type of thing and and was that easy to bring we all Partners there are you know there are always going to be some people who who get it and who are more engaged in and are interested in that part of the business there are some staff I would say I’ll not restrict it to Partners who are more interested in just being the technical experts and just being a technician and that and that’s absolutely fine it’s always been something that has interested me sort of you know that I haven’t heard of the e-myth but sounds like I can resonate completely with what you’ve told me about it but I’ve always been someone who’s quite interested in other you know management books or some of the business psychology books you know even things like getting to yes and you know the negotiation TCT it just interests me and I think from our perspective every everyone was interested in making the business as successful as it could be and we thought you know what’s to be nothing ventured nothing gained let’s let’s go and give it a go and see what we can do and from a personal perspective did you put your hand up or were you pushed forward I think I was nominated right and how have you found that yeah transition yeah I think it it’s not it’s not static it it evolves you know some weeks are much more management heavy some than than than others some weeks are you know completely absorbed if I’ve got a big a big divorce case coming up then I’m completely absorbed in in that particular case  I think one of the massive challenges is jumping from different roles I’m putting your different hat on from there but where I think I’m fortunate because I’ve been at macnabs for 21 years now absolutely terrifyingly and I’ve SE and the business has changed so much in in that time but it feels like a bit of a Natural Evolution so because I’ve been there so long and worked with the same colleagues for you know for a large majority for so long as well it feels like we’ve all kind of got that transition together I suppose and it sounds as if which I think can get lost in terms of the overall pursuit of wealth that it sounds like you’ve got a family within the business as well is probably dysfunctional there’s probably some siblings that you like more than others however it sounds like a place of comfort yeah for you and I don’t mean that in a sort of comfort as in not wanting to push your boundaries or anything like that but just yeah somewhere that feels like home yeah I think that that’s that’s absolutely right because I’ve been there so long and because the changes that we that the business has been through have been largely not exclusively but largely because we’ve driven those changes as well rather than having them imposed externally as well it is I’m comfortable there because I know I know the business I know how it works I know our challenges I know our strengths but I absolutely know our weaknesses as well and just having had the opportunity to live that I suppose and evolve with the business it’s a privilege yeah and we we’ve had staff that have worked with us I mean that’s so we have we have some staff that I have worked with not necessarily macnabs but since I was 16 and doing work experience before I went to UNI right okay so there are a lot of long-standing relationships there as well I mean I think for those who don’t know you know the type of area in which you operate geographically is a relatively affluent part of Scotland with a lot of nice towns and Villages nice place to live I imagine and a nice place to spend your time but the movement so the movement into you’re operating a hybrid role at what point do you think that becomes impossible yeah I think it it’s a good question and one that I have yeah posed to myself and had posed to me I have to say lots of times over the over the last 24 years I think quite often it’s why I work with a coach and he quite often says to me right okay well which one do you prefer Ruth do you know do you like the management do you like the fee earning and I can’t decide and sometime you it will obsolete from week to week you know but I fundamentally I like I like being involved in the fee earning work to some extent I like the client relationships I enjoy seeing someone who comes to see me pretty much broken after they’ve separated or had a you know significant life event and then with them to get to the point where you know they can see a way forward and you know we’ve helped them from that perspective and that’s why I started doing family law and so part of me is really reluctant to step away from that and to say right okay I’ll just do the management and I actually think I hope that it makes me a better managing partner because I still have so much client contact and I can understand what the challenges are both for our staff and dealing with clients as well but for our clients ourselves so sorry not sure I’ve answered that question I think it’s a really difficult one I think for the managing partner within law firms because unlike other businesses where the manager is a is brought in because of their managerial skills whether it might be a director of operations or a COO or whatever it might be with within the within the legal sector which is got you know you move from being a technician into a managing part now if you make that full-time move it’s difficult to move back absolutely you know in the tenure only lasts so long yes yeah so because this was a new role because we’re a relatively small firm you know we don’t have the rolling three-year appointment for example that you see some of the bigger firms having in an in a formal election and nobody’s challenged me for the for the role yeah I mean sometimes I would some weeks I would gladly be passing the mantle on and when there’s particular challenges but I mean I don’t know that you would ever or maybe there will come a time when I think right okay do you know what I we’ve built the department up that I’m involved in as a fee earner sufficiently that there is enough depth of an experience as well as bodies that that I can take a step back but I think I would only want to do that if I wanted to do it as well because I do think it still having some involvement as I say in client work is a good thing I think see it’s funny that you say that because you know I over the course of the past year it’s been very Illuminating for me and that I’ve understood as a result of bringing in people with significant agency experience that actually I have at points performed the role of the entrepreneur and the manager and actually I’m a terrible manager I couldn’t possibly comment but I can understand why and that’s probably the same for me as well just of necessity but what we have tried to do is you know recognise what your strengths are yeah recognise what your weaknesses are and that’s probably more important yeah and so you know we have brought in it Outsource marketing Outsource HR Outsource we have I have a coach and part of a peer-to-peer Business Leaders group but we’ve extended that to all our partners as well in terms of coaching not from a lawyer but from a business development not in terms of expanding your business but just more your how to be an entrepreneur how to run a business and trying to help bridge that gap between technician and moving on to being a partner in a law firm and therefore an entrepreneur and in some role as well and just trying to recognise what we don’t know mhm and not getting stuck with the ego which I think sometimes you see in law firms of I’m a really good lawyer so I must be a really good partner and I’ll be a really good manager yeah and we all know that that’s not always the case yeah I think I’ve been you know it’s can be easy to confuse how much money you’re making with how clever you are yep the more senior Partners so as you were moving into the managing partner role I imagine there was more senior Partners there at that time yes they were probably getting used to this idea that suddenly Ruth who’d been there forever was now in charge how was that and are they still there yet yes so I think there were two partners who were more senior to me at that point both of them were hugely supportive of me taking on this role neither one of them would have wanted to do it and I think that I’m really fortunate that that I’ve had that support as well one has now retired one is about to take a step back and retire in a couple of months’ time so that is a transition for me as well in terms of these are people that I have worked with for a long-time but know I’ve had nothing but support from my fellow Partners since I since I took on that role and how is so far anyway I’m sure I’m it sounded at the time as if it was a very collaborative colligate process that you were involved in where it was a recognition we need somebody to be taking this role and we need the best person in the business to do that absolutely it was by no stretch of the imagination any kind of power grab or you know and we have never been a partnership thankfully I’ll touch would where people’s elbows are out or there’s particularly jostling for position and you know and I think you know when I hear horror stories from other places I think gosh we’re really really really fortunate in that and we talked before this discussion around those Partners moving on yep and managing the succession planning process within your business yeah are you able to talk a wee bit about that because I’m sure that’s also something that is shared is a shared concern of many Law Firm Partners all across the country absolutely and it’s something that you know we had seen and continue to see I suppose in in our geographical area but I’m sure all over Scotland as well that people don’t start thinking about right well what’s my what’s my exit strategy what’s next for me until it’s almost too late to doing it recognising that these things can’t happen overnight or even in a you know even within a year period  so I mean in the last year we I’ve had quite a lot of change in the as I mentioned one of our senior partner in fact Stuart is taking a step back from the end of February he has been that’s been a very managed situation over 3 four years where he’s become part-time and taken you know that that step back to help him I suppose as well as well as the business manage that transition we’ve recruited another partner who’s somebody that worked with us years ago to come back and she’s been in situ alongside Stuart for nearly two years now and we’ve expanded at a more junior level so that we can hopefully create the right shape of the department but trying not to lose the bread of knowledge I suppose that we had I also had one of my more Junior Partners who had worked with for 15 years left the firm to go and sit as a somebody sheriff which all happened within a relatively short period of time so found myself just reflecting I suppose that these two partners who I had always had a great working relationship with still do have a great relationship with we’re going to going to be not sitting around our partnership table and how did that make me feel you know and just pausing and reflecting on that we had already brought on to other partners maybe two years previously always I think recognising that I think one of our strengths as a firm has been having quite a junior partnership not having lots of people in their 60s sitting around the table expecting that you know their capital account is going to be paid out and everyone else is there solely for that purpose and trying to create I suppose a dynamic partnership where everybody recognised the entrepreneurial role that they had to play as well so we’re now in a situation that once Stuart retires next month that we have we will have five Partners I’ll be the oldest you know I think one partner who will be in is in his early 40s and the rest are all in their 30s and so it sounds like you’ve managed the succession part what are you able to summarise what you think would be the key element are the key elements around succession planning in a relatively small firm I think encouraging honesty with everybody around the table about what their own personal objectives are and what their own personal plans are and trying to scope out a plan really in in in very general terms whether that’s you know over the next year over the next two years over the next five years as well always be looking out I think for people’s whose values align with what yours are and what the firms are I think just yeah always thinking about the bigger picture because I think anyone who has worked as a partner in the law firm knows you know things will come from left field on that idle Tuesday afternoon and completely throw you and so you need to be able to Pivot and adapt and think right okay that okay that wasn’t part of the plan for this week but or this month or this year but right what are we going to do and then just being able to pause and reflect thinking about where both who whom might be a good fit for you if you’re going to look externally looking within the firm already as to who could be supported to grow to get they might not be they might be a pure technician just now but who could you support to grow to get into that role or alternatively looking for other firms potentially I suppose or to merge with to try and create a new business entity as well and you know that we’re always looking for how does our business evolve and not being and yeah not having our minds closed as to how that might be I suppose and talking about the future one of the things I’ve heard you talk about is around attracting and retaining female talent in particular given the fact that we now have more women than men entering the legal profession yeah that’s right that’s right you know and I noticed from your partnership that and it looks if it’s swinging there you know there are which is you know great to see I mean I’m always of the view a person’s a person yeah you know and you want to recruit the right person however typically women or traditionally have had sort of different requirements around work yeah because biologically they’re the ones who end up you know pregnant or you raising a you know having to raise a family initially so how is it that you’re working on that or what’s important to you around all of that I think it’s one of these things which when I was in my 20s I would say and looking around who else was involved who were my role models who were you know my mentors and certainly in the teeside area at that time there were very few female Partners there were certainly very few Equity female Partners and I don’t think I can think of any anyone that was a managing female partner or held that role and In fairness that was you know 20 years ago as well but I just thought hm that didn’t it didn’t feel like there was necessary anything that to aspire to from that perspective like there was a glass ceiling yeah and I’ve been very fortunate and I’m very conscious that as I said my partners have without fail always been  supportive of me and my role and ultimately recognised I think that we I’ll you know I’ll work hard that might mean that I need to go to sports day that might mean I’ve you know I’ve got two kids that I’ll need to go and leave at quarter to 5 to pick them up from Nursery I’ll work parttime where it needs to be and the partnership’s view has always been do what you need to do you know we’ll bear with you and but I know that a very privileged position and that is absolutely not the position that a lot of my friends from uni my contemporaries have had as well I hope it is getting better I think it is getting better particularly in bigger firms and bigger firms who are able to offer you know for example longer periods of paternity leave or parental leave you know some big firms I think are offering a Year’s parental leave irrespective of whether it’s you know mother or father which is great to see but I think recognising that you know you’re saying absolutely more entrance into the the legal profession or female but if you look up towards the top level you know who who’s an equity partner who’s a managing partner the statistics are still pretty appalling there’s a recent Time study that that talks about I think it’s something like 20 odd per of round a board table are female now that’s part of that I think it absolutely and is because as you’re talking about women have traditionally had more caring responsibilities as well and the employers have not been as flexible perhaps as they are now I really hope that in 10 years’ time a bit of the lag from that has dissipated and it’s not the statistics are not quite as Stark In fairness that I’m not here to say women are hard done by but I think just recognising as well that women are sometimes  don’t put themselves forward for these roles the firms don’t create the environment which allows women to think that they can put themselves forward without say selling their soul well in terms of selling their soul in terms of the time that’s required or yeah the time and the commitment I suppose not and that’s not just in terms of fee earning work or supervising work or whatever that you’re doing in that managerial role but also in terms of what the business development expectations are so a lot of the big firms for example I know well the expectation is that you’re going to record however many business development hours and you know things are slightly better perhaps I’m not sure they’re massively better but a lot of those business development opportunities are you know Monday to Friday you know straight after work and if you’ve got kid young kids to pick up from Nursery or whatever then you know that that is a challenge so it’s just trying to start a bit of a conversation and a bit of awareness I suppose I mean it definitely is you know an interesting conversation to have and important that it’s raised because every business wants to attract the best talent absolutely the best POS talent and if as a result of failing to think about the ways in which you can accommodate uh women and their progression within the workplace means that you’re then not able to get that Talent well then you’re shooting yourself in the foot you know and like you discussed one of the reasons that I stopped being a lawyer very quickly was because I wasn’t interested in the lack of flexibility yep it didn’t mean I didn’t want to work hard absolutely you know and it’s the same you know and it’s it’s the same when you have family commitments which require you to be there which is the most important thing you know o over the piece with your family cause you can’t get that time back yeah but that does not mean that you don’t want to progress absolutely and you know there’s I’ve become part of a group called look up and Beyond with who’s which is started by a lady called Naeema Sajid who operates a business called diversity plus and Naeema has created this group of people women who are in the legal profession from lots of different and from private practice from you know inhouse practicing non-practicing but who have an interest in right ok this is where we are just now but how can we make it better for the 20-year-old self you know 20 years ago you know what are the challenges that we still see that need to be to be called out and looked at so you know if your firm’s you know staff you know hangout time is right we go for drinks on a Friday night know at 5:00 okay that’s going to work for some people but it’s not going to work for everybody and it’s about just pausing and reflecting lunch time pint well there you go yeah it’s right okay we’ll have a five aside tournament and that’s what we do you know but actually right okay tradition not to say tell we going to do that but just pause and think about it and think about I suppose how you’re Flex you know lots of firms will say yeah we operate flexible working policy I me you’re obliged to work you know to be considered flexible working requests but what do they actually mean and I think I hope because I have been fortunate to work hard but you know have that flexibility in the environment that we’ve created in with naps you know we have lots of Staff who work flexibly who work you know compressed hours or who work nonstandard hours who will do some at home at night because they need to pick children up from nursery and you know some that comes with its challenges as well it’s not to say that’s all you know all Rosy all the time inevitably there are challenges but I know that I really appreciated that flexibility and it’s not forever it’s for yeah it’s for a window in time but I think and I hope that you know that flexibility being afforded lets people continue in their careers that they might otherwise just think do know what this is all too hard it’s all too much of a challenge my family life’s suffering you know no nobody can have it all there are always compromises to be had but I think you know working flexibly I I hate that I idea of a work life balance cause to me that’s like the scales of justice and they’ve got to sit you know entirely and parallel with each other sometimes work’s going to steal more of your time but some as long as life sometimes steals a bit back of your work time then in the round is what we what we try and aspire to yeah I think it’s because it can be a bit like having two jobs undoubtedly and I think trying to build there’s there are various phases we mentioned that earlier we’re at a similar age I imagine as I did when you’re starting off in your career mhm you work harder yep because you’re trying to establish yourself you’re learning you’re trying to build the career and then as that progresses and you begin to build up some momentum then it’s not that you take your foot off the gas but that you’re able to understand how to balance things yeah a bit better but I think that takes time and experience as well and also that life experience I think to be able to then take a step back and look at the bigger picture you know because we see it with you know our nqs and more Junior fee earning staff as well that you know their focus is all on what their fees are this month and you know just very much focused on being the technician as well and it’s only at but we you know we’re trying to work with them to encourage them to you know to take a step back and look at right okay well did you provide an excellent service to that Cent it’s not just do you know the law and I wrote a killer letter that put the other side back in their place that’s not just what the job’s about as well and trying to encourage them I suppose to have that introspection as well and move and recognise beyond the technician as to you know yeah how it how it all actually works and the finally on that point what do you think are the key elements of attracting and retaining female talent I mean flexibility has got to be the key I think recognising that people the challenges that people have whether that’s a caring responsibility for children for parents you know for a family member this one size does not fit all that we’re all here to live that the work’s important that the business is important because it provides a livelihood for for 44 of us but it’s not the be all and end all and I think showing that you care showing that you understand there will be things that you know that that come along and will throw a spanner in the works but that you can nine times out of 10 find a solution if you talk about it and think through what the challenges are and work flexibly not being enclosed I suppose in your thinking I would say would be the biggest challenge in terms of whether that’s what kind of work when the work is done how that’s communicated to clients you know just I suppose trying to have that collaborative ethos of like we’ll find a solution to this goes back into being honest as well as you’re talking about your discussions totally and you know and I think honesty and authenticity as well because everybody that works in The Firm sees me you know living that I suppose that quite often I’m like oh sorry I’m actually running out to pick up my kids just now so there’s a half hour window on a Tuesday afternoon that I can’t don’t put anything in my diary and that that’s fine and I think people see that you know I hope they see that I’m still doing a good job that I’m there for my clients I’m there for you know if there’s any problems it doesn’t need to be the Monday to Friday 95 sell your soul you can you can still do your job and on your terms I suppose and uh finally Law Firm success mhm what does that mean to you yeah I think it’s I mean a law firm is a living and breathing and dynamic thing or it should be in my in my view as well and I think a successful Law Firm for me and Law Firm success is one which has a direction of travel one which evolves one which one which is you know attractive to clients one is which is attractive to their employees that are already there as well as new clients as well yeah financial success as well don’t get me wrong I mean we’re all we’re all here because we’ve got mortgages to pay and you know and people to support but a law firm success is something that I think yeah it’s a bit of an intangible I would say because as you say everyone has an objective measure as to what that might be and it’s you know whether you have you know your income of half a million a year or whatever like that but for me it’s more about a successful Law Firm is one which has a dynamism and a clear trajectory forward and do you feel that as a result of your changes that you’ve made over the course of the past few years at macnabs that pre 2017 and where you are now you feel you’re on a more more clearly defined trajectory towards the type of success you’ve discussed yeah undoubtedly I mean Rome was not built in a day and it will always be there will always be things to be done always and you know we always have a a joke arounder partnership table that things never stay static you might think all right okay we’ve got over that that jumped through that hoop or sorted out that problem and then there’s always something else and I think it’s learning to be comfortable with the law was be something else the law was be another challenge the law was be another opportunity as well but yeah I’m proud of the of the firm and everything that we’ve done over the last six years and you know but there’s still lots more to do and that that’s what keeps it interesting 100% well thank you very much Ruth thank you for your time and best of luck in 2024 thank you very much so thanks very much for listening to today’s episode I hope you enjoyed it I hope you’re enjoying our content we’d be delighted to hear any feedback that you have you can find out more about the your Law Firm success podcast at please subscribe please share with your friends please share with anyone who you know that you think would be interested  


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